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	<title>Comments on: Email client poll: The winners and losers</title>
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	<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/</link>
	<description>Tips and add-ons to make Apple Mail / Mail.app even better</description>
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		<title>By: Don Parr</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7270</link>
		<dc:creator>Don Parr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 21:03:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7270</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m still waiting the initial (or beta) release of &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theronge.com/kiwi/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;Kiwi&quot;&lt;/a&gt;. In the mean time, my email client program of choice is Apple&#039;s mail.app. On the PC/Windows side of the house, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.incredimail.com/english/splash/splash.asp&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&quot;IncrediMail&quot;&lt;/a&gt; did it for me. The problem is, IncrediMail is exclusively written for Windows :(. If there were a Mac version of IncrediMail available, I&#039;d be in email client program heaven ~ sigh. I will continue to hope and search for &#039;thee&#039; email client program that does it for me and my iBook, while using Mail.app in the mean time.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m still waiting the initial (or beta) release of <a href="http://www.theronge.com/kiwi/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Kiwi&#8221;</a>. In the mean time, my email client program of choice is Apple&#8217;s mail.app. On the PC/Windows side of the house, <a href="http://www.incredimail.com/english/splash/splash.asp" rel="nofollow">&#8220;IncrediMail&#8221;</a> did it for me. The problem is, IncrediMail is exclusively written for Windows :(. If there were a Mac version of IncrediMail available, I&#8217;d be in email client program heaven ~ sigh. I will continue to hope and search for &#8216;thee&#8217; email client program that does it for me and my iBook, while using Mail.app in the mean time.</p>
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		<title>By: Rudi</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7231</link>
		<dc:creator>Rudi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Jun 2006 15:29:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7231</guid>
		<description>I think the reason that Thunderbird has gained a lot is two-pronged:

1. It&#039;s the most user-friendly and compatible IMAP client of the modern apps, and IMAP is gaining traction with a lot of ISPs and universities.

2. Its interface is consistent between Mac OS, Windows and Linux - a big plus for folks who use email at work and home and don&#039;t want to deal with two different interfaces.

And the Thunderbird crew is really quick at squashing bugs, which is a big plus.  My employer uses Thunderbird as its default email client (IMAP mail, Macs and PCs throughout our office), and while we support other clients (e.g. Entourage, Eudora, Outlook), Thunderbird is the best app for IMAP: consistent behavior and interface, etc.

At home, where most of my accounts are POP3, I use Mail.app.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the reason that Thunderbird has gained a lot is two-pronged:</p>
<p>1. It&#8217;s the most user-friendly and compatible IMAP client of the modern apps, and IMAP is gaining traction with a lot of ISPs and universities.</p>
<p>2. Its interface is consistent between Mac OS, Windows and Linux &#8211; a big plus for folks who use email at work and home and don&#8217;t want to deal with two different interfaces.</p>
<p>And the Thunderbird crew is really quick at squashing bugs, which is a big plus.  My employer uses Thunderbird as its default email client (IMAP mail, Macs and PCs throughout our office), and while we support other clients (e.g. Entourage, Eudora, Outlook), Thunderbird is the best app for IMAP: consistent behavior and interface, etc.</p>
<p>At home, where most of my accounts are POP3, I use Mail.app.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7139</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7139</guid>
		<description>TouchÃ©! ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>TouchÃ©! ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: sjk</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7136</link>
		<dc:creator>sjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 23:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7136</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Thatâ€™s why these on-line polls are nothing more than eye candy. Itâ€™s not that theyâ€™re meaninglessâ€¦ They can be interesting, but at a purely abstract level. Thereâ€™s nothing concrete that can be said about them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I was using meaningless as a contradiction to any idea of them meaning more or different things than they actually do.

&lt;blockquote&gt;There is ABSOLUTELY NO THEORY that exists to explain polls taken in this manner.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The &lt;b&gt;For Entertainment Purposes Only&lt;/b&gt; disclaimer seems well-fitting for polls with aforementioned kinds of biases and other dubious conditions.

Wrapping up this silliness by answering Tim&#039;s original question:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Looking at these results, what surprises you?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Nothing really, about the results.  Any surprise is the &quot;serious&quot; amount of attention such a mundane, unserious poll has generated here. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Thatâ€™s why these on-line polls are nothing more than eye candy. Itâ€™s not that theyâ€™re meaninglessâ€¦ They can be interesting, but at a purely abstract level. Thereâ€™s nothing concrete that can be said about them.</p></blockquote>
<p>I was using meaningless as a contradiction to any idea of them meaning more or different things than they actually do.</p>
<blockquote><p>There is ABSOLUTELY NO THEORY that exists to explain polls taken in this manner.</p></blockquote>
<p>The <b>For Entertainment Purposes Only</b> disclaimer seems well-fitting for polls with aforementioned kinds of biases and other dubious conditions.</p>
<p>Wrapping up this silliness by answering Tim&#8217;s original question:</p>
<blockquote><p>Looking at these results, what surprises you?</p></blockquote>
<p>Nothing really, about the results.  Any surprise is the &#8220;serious&#8221; amount of attention such a mundane, unserious poll has generated here. :-)</p>
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		<title>By: Ted Pavlic</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7057</link>
		<dc:creator>Ted Pavlic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:53:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7057</guid>
		<description>I never said that the figures are &quot;meaningless.&quot; I said that differences of this magnitude are meaningless. 

Tiem and time again it has been shown that polls conducted through a volunteer method like this have little probability of representing an entire population. That is, these results have little chance of matching an actual scientific sample of macOSXHints readers let alone Mac users as a whole. The people who decide to take such a poll are not a representative sample of any population. This is exactly what happened with &quot;Dewey WIns!&quot; People who had telephones simply were not a good representative sample of a population. People who volunteer for polls are even worse. You skew your sampling.

That&#039;s why these on-line polls are nothing more than eye candy. It&#039;s not that they&#039;re meaningless... They can be interesting, but at a purely abstract level. There&#039;s nothing concrete that can be said about them. There is ABSOLUTELY NO THEORY that exists to explain polls taken in this manner. 

Here&#039;s an example of what I mean about stability. You can get heavy tailed/free-scale like race conditions with these polls. Let&#039;s say that someone views your site, and you&#039;re showing the stats half-way through the week. Someone sees that Thunderbird isn&#039;t doing so well. They would have never read macOSXhints, but they want to stick up for Thunderbird, so they go to the site. Their vote is dependent upon the votes before them. The statistics that you are using to draw your conclusions make the assumption that each vote is indepedent of every other vote.

And so, depending on timing and initial conditions and lots of other things, if you re-ran this poll today and then next week and then next week you may get completely different distributions. You simply cannot simply assume that these are stable results. We know NOTHING about the convergence properties of polls taken this way.

So when you see a 3% or 5% difference from a poll taken last year... I don&#039;t that shows convincing evidence of anything. I think it just does exactly what these polls are meant to do -- make readers feel warm and fuzzy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I never said that the figures are &#8220;meaningless.&#8221; I said that differences of this magnitude are meaningless. </p>
<p>Tiem and time again it has been shown that polls conducted through a volunteer method like this have little probability of representing an entire population. That is, these results have little chance of matching an actual scientific sample of macOSXHints readers let alone Mac users as a whole. The people who decide to take such a poll are not a representative sample of any population. This is exactly what happened with &#8220;Dewey WIns!&#8221; People who had telephones simply were not a good representative sample of a population. People who volunteer for polls are even worse. You skew your sampling.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s why these on-line polls are nothing more than eye candy. It&#8217;s not that they&#8217;re meaningless&#8230; They can be interesting, but at a purely abstract level. There&#8217;s nothing concrete that can be said about them. There is ABSOLUTELY NO THEORY that exists to explain polls taken in this manner. </p>
<p>Here&#8217;s an example of what I mean about stability. You can get heavy tailed/free-scale like race conditions with these polls. Let&#8217;s say that someone views your site, and you&#8217;re showing the stats half-way through the week. Someone sees that Thunderbird isn&#8217;t doing so well. They would have never read macOSXhints, but they want to stick up for Thunderbird, so they go to the site. Their vote is dependent upon the votes before them. The statistics that you are using to draw your conclusions make the assumption that each vote is indepedent of every other vote.</p>
<p>And so, depending on timing and initial conditions and lots of other things, if you re-ran this poll today and then next week and then next week you may get completely different distributions. You simply cannot simply assume that these are stable results. We know NOTHING about the convergence properties of polls taken this way.</p>
<p>So when you see a 3% or 5% difference from a poll taken last year&#8230; I don&#8217;t that shows convincing evidence of anything. I think it just does exactly what these polls are meant to do &#8212; make readers feel warm and fuzzy.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7055</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 02:16:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7055</guid>
		<description>4,251 readers voted in the first poll and 7,750 in the second.

I don&#039;t understand why people think that the figures are &quot;meaningless&quot;. Stastically unsound to some degree, yes. Skewed a bit, yes. But meaningless?

Why is this not an accurate breakdown of macOSXHints readers who happen by in the week of the poll, are prepared to participate in polls and willing to press a radio button?

Is there some other statistical factor that I am overlooking?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>4,251 readers voted in the first poll and 7,750 in the second.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t understand why people think that the figures are &#8220;meaningless&#8221;. Stastically unsound to some degree, yes. Skewed a bit, yes. But meaningless?</p>
<p>Why is this not an accurate breakdown of macOSXHints readers who happen by in the week of the poll, are prepared to participate in polls and willing to press a radio button?</p>
<p>Is there some other statistical factor that I am overlooking?</p>
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		<title>By: sjk</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7048</link>
		<dc:creator>sjk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 20 Jun 2006 01:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7048</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;@Jeremy: I completely agree with you about Mailâ€™s usability and smooth edges. I love it too.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Mail&#039;s the most usable and smooth OS X MUA for me, too.  But too many issues still keep me from &quot;loving&quot; it, especially with its potential for randomly losing messages (which fortunately I have noticed happen for awhile, though that doesn&#039;t mean it hasn&#039;t).

Gmail wasn&#039;t on the first mail client poll and just its popularity has surely had a significant influence on switchers from Mail.  Some switchers to Thunderbird may have been influenced by their preference for Firefox and its increased popularity, too.  The second poll has almost double the number of respondents, without knowing how many participated in the original one.  And the percentages seem simultaneously predictable and meaningless to me.

Mac OS X Hints visitors represent a more technically inclined and/or curious segment of the Apple/Mac community.  It&#039;s usually easy to see how that heavy bias influences polls there, which are a harmless (even silly) indicator of relatively little or no significance.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>@Jeremy: I completely agree with you about Mailâ€™s usability and smooth edges. I love it too.</p></blockquote>
<p>Mail&#8217;s the most usable and smooth OS X MUA for me, too.  But too many issues still keep me from &#8220;loving&#8221; it, especially with its potential for randomly losing messages (which fortunately I have noticed happen for awhile, though that doesn&#8217;t mean it hasn&#8217;t).</p>
<p>Gmail wasn&#8217;t on the first mail client poll and just its popularity has surely had a significant influence on switchers from Mail.  Some switchers to Thunderbird may have been influenced by their preference for Firefox and its increased popularity, too.  The second poll has almost double the number of respondents, without knowing how many participated in the original one.  And the percentages seem simultaneously predictable and meaningless to me.</p>
<p>Mac OS X Hints visitors represent a more technically inclined and/or curious segment of the Apple/Mac community.  It&#8217;s usually easy to see how that heavy bias influences polls there, which are a harmless (even silly) indicator of relatively little or no significance.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7019</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jun 2006 21:41:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7019</guid>
		<description>@Jeremy: I completely agree with you about Mail&#039;s usability and smooth edges. I love it too. 

But it is interesting that lots of other people in the two polls don&#039;t seem to share the love. I wonder what makes &lt;em&gt;them&lt;/em&gt; switch?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jeremy: I completely agree with you about Mail&#8217;s usability and smooth edges. I love it too. </p>
<p>But it is interesting that lots of other people in the two polls don&#8217;t seem to share the love. I wonder what makes <em>them</em> switch?</p>
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		<title>By: Jeremey Barrett</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-7001</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeremey Barrett</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jun 2006 19:25:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-7001</guid>
		<description>I must live on fantasy island because Mail.app is great for me. I read multiple IMAP accounts (all over SSL) for both work and home and Mail has the best comination of features I&#039;ve found. It doesn&#039;t have everything, but what it does have works consistently and is devoid of the jagged edges found in everything else (Thunderbird being its primary competitor in my book). My inbox (unified) usually has 3000-8000 messages in it and I do quite a bit of email on a daily basis. The only caveat to this is that I don&#039;t really use folders because they make me spend my time organizing mail instead of letting spotlight do its thing.

One of the most important features to me is the ability to turn HTML email off. I hate HTML email (evil evil evil), and Mail.app is so far the only well-integrated GUI mail app I&#039;ve used that actually supports turning HTML email off (via hidden preference). Thunderbird can&#039;t do it (which is infuriating because customization is about all it has going for it). Mail.app always (and I mean ALWAYS) displays mail in my chosen monospace font and size.

I&#039;ve been a finicky emailer for a really long time (elm, anyone?) and I think I&#039;ve used every GUI and non-GUI email client for Unix available since 1993 or so... Mail.app is the best client on any platform that I&#039;ve used, for what I do. I certainly wouldn&#039;t &quot;switch to Windows&quot; over a mail app (as if switching operating systems would fix it, and as if Windows has any really good mail clients either)... that would be like cutting my head off because my nose hurts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must live on fantasy island because Mail.app is great for me. I read multiple IMAP accounts (all over SSL) for both work and home and Mail has the best comination of features I&#8217;ve found. It doesn&#8217;t have everything, but what it does have works consistently and is devoid of the jagged edges found in everything else (Thunderbird being its primary competitor in my book). My inbox (unified) usually has 3000-8000 messages in it and I do quite a bit of email on a daily basis. The only caveat to this is that I don&#8217;t really use folders because they make me spend my time organizing mail instead of letting spotlight do its thing.</p>
<p>One of the most important features to me is the ability to turn HTML email off. I hate HTML email (evil evil evil), and Mail.app is so far the only well-integrated GUI mail app I&#8217;ve used that actually supports turning HTML email off (via hidden preference). Thunderbird can&#8217;t do it (which is infuriating because customization is about all it has going for it). Mail.app always (and I mean ALWAYS) displays mail in my chosen monospace font and size.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been a finicky emailer for a really long time (elm, anyone?) and I think I&#8217;ve used every GUI and non-GUI email client for Unix available since 1993 or so&#8230; Mail.app is the best client on any platform that I&#8217;ve used, for what I do. I certainly wouldn&#8217;t &#8220;switch to Windows&#8221; over a mail app (as if switching operating systems would fix it, and as if Windows has any really good mail clients either)&#8230; that would be like cutting my head off because my nose hurts.</p>
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		<title>By: mzungu</title>
		<link>http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/comment-page-1/#comment-6999</link>
		<dc:creator>mzungu</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jun 2006 18:43:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.hawkwings.net/2006/06/19/email-client-poll-the-winners-and-losers/#comment-6999</guid>
		<description>I would consider myself a hardcore mac user, but mail.app has driven me almost over the edge of switching to windows. 
I somehow managed to import my data from mail 1 ( 10.3.9), but importing under tiger from mail 2 always fails. Imagine a piece of software that is unable to import/read its own data.
the last system update broke smtp somehow, so I went to gyaz mail. happy so far. mail.app? never again, so its more amazing for me that still so many mac users are using it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would consider myself a hardcore mac user, but mail.app has driven me almost over the edge of switching to windows.<br />
I somehow managed to import my data from mail 1 ( 10.3.9), but importing under tiger from mail 2 always fails. Imagine a piece of software that is unable to import/read its own data.<br />
the last system update broke smtp somehow, so I went to gyaz mail. happy so far. mail.app? never again, so its more amazing for me that still so many mac users are using it.</p>
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